[Twisted-Python] revisiting onboarding

[Glyph Lefkowitz]

A few months ago, the question of an official process for obtaining commit access was raised.

The discussion lead to this proposal - https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/Proposal/ContributorAdvancementPath <https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/Proposal/ContributorAdvancementPath>. I like that proposal, but it is still incomplete: to wit, it defines a template for how roles might be defined but does not actually define any roles. It also seems to be a bit overly ambitious, just from the observed reaction of nobody having the time to implement it :).

So I have a proposal for a scaled back process that nevertheless would give us something official-ish:

Not all committers are actively involved in the project at all times, so we should form a "committer committee" of people who are interested in evaluating candidates. If you would like to do that and you're already a committer, please contact me and I'll add you to the list. I want to do this so there's somewhere to apply to which isn't just a public mailing list or discussion, since public discussions can create social pressure to grant someone commit just to be nice, and rejections might be perceived as mean.

Candidates should submit an application to this new list, ***@twistedmatrix.com <mailto:***@twistedmatrix.com> which is a list of links to at least 10 tickets, at least 5 of which are patches they've submitted, and at least 5 of which are code reviews they've done which have been accepted by a committer. At least 2 of their authored patches should have gone all the way through the process to be landed.

As with the other parts of our process, if there is at least one sponsor, and no objections from anyone on the committee within 7 days, any member of the committee may add the committer.

New committers should then be announced on the mailing list.

This is not really an ideal process - particularly, it lacks a good way to give contributors something specific and useful to do - but it's something at least. If there is general assent that this is an improvement, I'll go make a wiki page and a mailing list.

-glyph

[Chris]

Glyph,

I support this idea. I like the fact that it gives a clear goal (5 submitted patches, 5 reviews, and 2 accepted submissions) towards which people interested in committing can work.

-Chris (herrwolfe)

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
A few months ago, the question of an official process for obtaining commit access was raised.
The discussion lead to this proposal - https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/Proposal/ContributorAdvancementPath <https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/Proposal/ContributorAdvancementPath>. I like that proposal, but it is still incomplete: to wit, it defines a template for how roles might be defined but does not actually define any roles. It also seems to be a bit overly ambitious, just from the observed reaction of nobody having the time to implement it :).
Not all committers are actively involved in the project at all times, so we should form a "committer committee" of people who are interested in evaluating candidates. If you would like to do that and you're already a committer, please contact me and I'll add you to the list. I want to do this so there's somewhere to apply to which isn't just a public mailing list or discussion, since public discussions can create social pressure to grant someone commit just to be nice, and rejections might be perceived as mean.
As with the other parts of our process, if there is at least one sponsor, and no objections from anyone on the committee within 7 days, any member of the committee may add the committer.
New committers should then be announced on the mailing list.
This is not really an ideal process - particularly, it lacks a good way to give contributors something specific and useful to do - but it's something at least. If there is general assent that this is an improvement, I'll go make a wiki page and a mailing list.
-glyph
_______________________________________________
Twisted-Python mailing list
http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python

[Adi Roiban]

On 2 February 2015 at 19:18, Glyph Lefkowitz <***@twistedmatrix.com> wrote:
[snip]

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
Candidates should submit an application to this new list,
least 5 of which are patches they've submitted, and at least 5 of which are
code reviews they've done which have been accepted by a committer. At least
2 of their authored patches should have gone all the way through the process
to be landed.

I am not a supporter of private discussions for public projects... but
I am ok with having something.
I agree that Twisted general discussion
Open source contributors should take a rejection as an opportunity to improve.
Open source maintainer should not accept patches or add new
contributors just to be nice.

I would say that we should ask for 5 patches which were merged.
I find that 2 patches are too few.
Also 2 patches for cleanup jobs are fine, but I don't think that they
are enough.

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
As with the other parts of our process, if there is at least one sponsor,
and no objections from anyone on the committee within 7 days, any member of
the committee may add the committer.
New committers should then be announced on the mailing list.
This is not really an ideal process - particularly, it lacks a good way to
give contributors something specific and useful to do - but it's something
at least. If there is general assent that this is an improvement, I'll go
make a wiki page and a mailing list.

Should be a start and much better than current process.

As soon as the committee is in place I will apply for commit rights to
practice the process and also validate that I deserve the commit
right.
Meanwhile I will start recording my activity.

For new contributors, I suggest that they can create a wiki page to
keep track of the tickets.

I have no idea how you can use Trac report to give you a list of
tickets you have reviewer or you have contributed patches to.

------

Since some Twisted related project are on GitHub it would be nice to
discuss some direction about how to get edit rights for those
projects.

Thanks!
--
Adi

[Glyph]

Post by Adi Roiban
[snip]

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
Candidates should submit an application to this new list,
least 5 of which are patches they've submitted, and at least 5 of which are
code reviews they've done which have been accepted by a committer. At least
2 of their authored patches should have gone all the way through the process
to be landed.

I am not a supporter of private discussions for public projects... but
I am ok with having something.
I agree that Twisted general discussion

As a general rule I would agree with these sentiments, but generally, open projects are discussing specific bits of code. In this case, we're talking about actually evaluating people as worthy or unworthy of commit access.

Post by Adi Roiban
Open source contributors should take a rejection as an opportunity to improve.

Sure, we accept this as part of the normal review process. And we accept it here as well, as part of a private discussion. But it is hard to accept public shaming as an opportunity to improve. Private feedback is much easier to give, and it is much easier for the contributor to take.

Post by Adi Roiban
Open source maintainer should not accept patches or add new contributors just to be nice.

We do not have trouble rejecting patches, because we are able to keep the focus entirely on the patch, because that is what is being evaluated, and not the contributor. Of course here the focus should be entirely on the work too, but it is hard enough to keep the discussion centered that way in code review :).

Post by Adi Roiban
I would say that we should ask for 5 patches which were merged.
I find that 2 patches are too few.

This is more of a minimum; if they are 2 substantial patches, that seems like more than enough. But the committee reserves the right to say "this is not enough significant work".

Post by Adi Roiban
Also 2 patches for cleanup jobs are fine, but I don't think that they
are enough.

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
As with the other parts of our process, if there is at least one sponsor,
and no objections from anyone on the committee within 7 days, any member of
the committee may add the committer.
New committers should then be announced on the mailing list.
This is not really an ideal process - particularly, it lacks a good way to
give contributors something specific and useful to do - but it's something
at least. If there is general assent that this is an improvement, I'll go
make a wiki page and a mailing list.

Should be a start and much better than current process.
As soon as the committee is in place I will apply for commit rights to
practice the process and also validate that I deserve the commit
right.

Thank you for volunteering :-).

Post by Adi Roiban
Meanwhile I will start recording my activity.
For new contributors, I suggest that they can create a wiki page to
keep track of the tickets.

That sounds like a great idea.

Post by Adi Roiban
I have no idea how you can use Trac report to give you a list of
tickets you have reviewer or you have contributed patches to.

I'm not sure if external contributors have enough access to the SQL. Maybe we can make a report that queries the database directly rather than going through trac, like <http://twistedmatrix.com/highscores/>.

Post by Adi Roiban
------
Since some Twisted related project are on GitHub it would be nice to
discuss some direction about how to get edit rights for those
projects.
Thanks!

I think we should probably follow the same process; the main question is whether each project should have its own set of core reviewers. I honestly don't have an idea for that :).

-glyph

[Adi Roiban]

[snip]

Post by Adi Roiban
Meanwhile I will start recording my activity.
For new contributors, I suggest that they can create a wiki page to
keep track of the tickets.
That sounds like a great idea.

here you go https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/users/adiroiban

Post by Adi Roiban
I have no idea how you can use Trac report to give you a list of
tickets you have reviewer or you have contributed patches to.
I'm not sure if external contributors have enough access to the SQL. Maybe
we can make a report that queries the database directly rather than going
through trac, like <http://twistedmatrix.com/highscores/>.

I used the git log / email search to compile current data... but I
assume that candidates will
update the wiki page in an incremental way.

The enhancement ticket type is a bit to generic for this purpose...
but I prefer to keep ticket metadata simple and maybe candidates can
set some tags to help with queries.

[Tom Prince]

<..details...>

I support this proposal.

Tom

[Chris Wolfe]

Hi,

Has this proposal been accepted? Is there anything I can do to help
implement it?

-Chris

Post by Tom Prince

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
So I have a proposal for a scaled back process that nevertheless would
<..details...>

I support this proposal.
Tom
_______________________________________________
Twisted-Python mailing list
http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python

[Glyph Lefkowitz]

I think we can consider it tacitly accepted by the community (nobody seemed to object) but we still don't have anyone to implement it. Do you want to step up to do that? :)

-g

Hi,
Has this proposal been accepted? Is there anything I can do to help implement it?
-Chris

<..details...>

I support this proposal.
Tom
_______________________________________________
Twisted-Python mailing list
http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python <http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python>
--
Chris Wolfe

[Chris Wolfe]

Sure! I can only think of three things that need to be done:

1. Add a wiki page detailing the process you proposed. It may be helpful to
display an example email showing what should be included in a new
contributor request. The following pages should have links to the new
policy:
- https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/TwistedDevelopment#Policies
- https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/ContributingToTwistedLabs

I can create the wiki page and the example email. To do so, I'll need to
get wiki permissions added to my trac account.

2. Activate the email address ***@twistedmatrix.com and compile a list
of people to whom new commit requests should be sent for review. I can't do
this.

3. Send an email to the general mailing list once the new pages are up to
announce the new advancement path. I can do this.

Is there anything I'm missing?

- Chris // herrwolfe

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
I think we can consider it tacitly accepted by the community (nobody
seemed to object) but we still don't have anyone to implement it. Do you
want to step up to do that? :)
-g
Hi,
Has this proposal been accepted? Is there anything I can do to help implement it?
-Chris

Post by Tom Prince

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
So I have a proposal for a scaled back process that nevertheless would
<..details...>

I support this proposal.
Tom
_______________________________________________
Twisted-Python mailing list
http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python

--
Chris Wolfe

[Glyph Lefkowitz]

Can you send me an iCalendar invite of some kind to give you all the relevant permissions? I would definitely like to volunteer to do it, but if we don't have a specific time, I will 100% guarantee you that I will forget :).

-glyph

P.S.: I've been setting a bad example, but we should generally be bottom-posting on this list, it makes the conversation easier to follow :).

- https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/TwistedDevelopment#Policies <https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/TwistedDevelopment#Policies>
- https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/ContributingToTwistedLabs <https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/ContributingToTwistedLabs>
I can create the wiki page and the example email. To do so, I'll need to get wiki permissions added to my trac account.
3. Send an email to the general mailing list once the new pages are up to announce the new advancement path. I can do this.
Is there anything I'm missing?
- Chris // herrwolfe
I think we can consider it tacitly accepted by the community (nobody seemed to object) but we still don't have anyone to implement it. Do you want to step up to do that? :)
-g

Hi,
Has this proposal been accepted? Is there anything I can do to help implement it?
-Chris

<..details...>

I support this proposal.
Tom
_______________________________________________
Twisted-Python mailing list
http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python <http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python>
--
Chris Wolfe

--
Chris Wolfe

[Chris Wolfe]

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
Can you send me an iCalendar invite of some kind to give you all the
relevant permissions? I would definitely like to volunteer to do it, but
if we don't have a specific time, I will 100% guarantee you that I will
forget :).
-glyph
P.S.: I've been setting a bad example, but we should generally be
bottom-posting on this list, it makes the conversation easier to follow :).
1. Add a wiki page detailing the process you proposed. It may be helpful
to display an example email showing what should be included in a new
contributor request. The following pages should have links to the new
- https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/TwistedDevelopment#Policies
- https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/ContributingToTwistedLabs
I can create the wiki page and the example email. To do so, I'll need to
get wiki permissions added to my trac account.
of people to whom new commit requests should be sent for review. I can't do
this.
3. Send an email to the general mailing list once the new pages are up to
announce the new advancement path. I can do this.
Is there anything I'm missing?
- Chris // herrwolfe

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
I think we can consider it tacitly accepted by the community (nobody
seemed to object) but we still don't have anyone to implement it. Do you
want to step up to do that? :)
-g
Hi,
Has this proposal been accepted? Is there anything I can do to help implement it?
-Chris

Post by Tom Prince

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
So I have a proposal for a scaled back process that nevertheless would
<..details...>

I support this proposal.
Tom
_______________________________________________
Twisted-Python mailing list
http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python

--
Chris Wolfe

--
Chris Wolfe

Hi,

I've added a draft wiki page detailing the contributor advancement path.
The page is located at
https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/Drafts/ContributorAdvancementPath.

If anyone has any feedback on the document, please feel free to either edit
the wiki or send me an email through the mailing list. If there aren't any
objections to what I've written by June 5, I will move it out of the drafts
section and link it up to the other documentation.

Thanks!
Chris

[Glyph Lefkowitz]

I've added a draft wiki page detailing the contributor advancement path. The page is located at https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/Drafts/ContributorAdvancementPath <https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/Drafts/ContributorAdvancementPath>.
If anyone has any feedback on the document, please feel free to either edit the wiki or send me an email through the mailing list. If there aren't any objections to what I've written by June 5, I will move it out of the drafts section and link it up to the other documentation.

Thanks for doing this, Chris! I am looking forward to folks filling this out :).

-glyph

[Chris Wolfe]

On 2 February 2015 at 19:18, Glyph Lefkowitz <***@twistedmatrix.com>
wrote:
[snip]

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
Not all committers are actively involved in the project at all times, so

we should form a "committer committee"

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
of people who are interested in evaluating candidates. If you would like

to do that and you're already a committer,

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
please contact me and I'll add you to the list.

It looks like this new process has stalled on the formation of the
committee to review new contributor requests. As of right now, the
committee has no members. :-)

This email is a call for volunteers. If you would like to serve on the
committee, please reply to this thread and state that you are interested in
serving on the committee. Once enough volunteers have signed up, new
contributor requests will be sent to the committee's mailing list.

Thanks!

[Glyph Lefkowitz]

Post by Adi Roiban
[snip]

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
Not all committers are actively involved in the project at all times, so we should form a "committer committee"
of people who are interested in evaluating candidates. If you would like to do that and you're already a committer,
please contact me and I'll add you to the list.

It looks like this new process has stalled on the formation of the committee to review new contributor requests. As of right now, the committee has no members. :-)
This email is a call for volunteers. If you would like to serve on the committee, please reply to this thread and state that you are interested in serving on the committee. Once enough volunteers have signed up, new contributor requests will be sent to the committee's mailing list.

I'm going to go a step further and say that you do not need to be a committer yourself to be on this mailing list. Being a committer is a technical qualification; this is a people process. If you want to become a committer you will of course have to recuse yourself from a decision about yourself :), but otherwise I'm happy to have people who haven't cleared this process themselves participate in it, as long as they follow the process and evaluate folks fairly.

-glyph

[Amber "Hawkie" Brown]

Post by Adi Roiban
[snip]

Post by Glyph Lefkowitz
Not all committers are actively involved in the project at all times, so we should form a "committer committee"
of people who are interested in evaluating candidates. If you would like to do that and you're already a committer,
please contact me and I'll add you to the list.

It looks like this new process has stalled on the formation of the committee to review new contributor requests. As of right now, the committee has no members. :-)
This email is a call for volunteers. If you would like to serve on the committee, please reply to this thread and state that you are interested in serving on the committee. Once enough volunteers have signed up, new contributor requests will be sent to the committee's mailing list.

I'm happy to be on this.

- Amber